This part is definitely the case. We’re hoping that designers who primarily use Photoshop and Illustrator can instantly jump in and start creating “complete” SWF content with Flash Catalyst. So hopefully designers can create some pretty cool stuff with Catalyst.

But I’m selfish, and I like revenue, so for me the ideal is that from Flash Catalyst they need to branch out into the other Flash Platform tools like Flash Professional or Flex Builder to create “better” applications/experiences.

Really good discussion though, thanks for the post John.

=Ryan
ryan@adobe.com

I’ll end with this … My feeling/opinion is that while currently not intended, Flash Catalyst can and will probably will be used to create the entire SWF by some designers, without ever bothering to launch Flash IDE or Flex. And while limited right now compared to the Flash IDE, one must assume that Flash Catalyst will need to gain those extra tools (IK, 3d, motion editor, etc) to be successfully used to design the user experience. If ultimately Flash Catalyst can’t do what I need to demonstrate to the client or developer exactly what I have in my mind and I’m forced to go back to Flash IDE, then why start with Flash Catalyst in the first place? Unless its purpose is just to be a skinning tool .. and I hope not, but that is a waste of a great tool that has a lot of potential. I’m a Flash guy that has grown up alongside of Flash. I use Flex from time to time, but still use Flash for some projects as well. Flash Catalyst will be a part of my future workflow, however, its my opinion, that with some more work by Adobe, that it could replace the Flash IDE for me and others. Maybe not for everyone, but for a lot of people, and I know I can’t be the only person who thinks this.

Side note: my prior job was designer for a company making Windows applications and using WPF. I was using Expression Designer and Express Blend initially. Blend is basically the tool that Flash Catalyst is modeled after. The two things that always was frustrating to use was that a) Blend could allow you to do the entire app from within Blend yet MS handicapped Blend by not putting in Intellisense (my guess is to ensure that we used Visual Studio) and b) the auto-generated code was considered “crap” by the developers. So in the end, the tool frustrated me, and developers just wanted the XAML anyhow. So I started doing my designs in Fireworks and used the Infragistics FW-to-XAML Exporter and never touched Blend again on a regular basis.

When I referred to ‘state transitions’ I was being specific. Flex has a UI component called “State” and it as another component named ‘Transition”. To move from one state to another you wrap your state component within a transition component. This is nothing like Flash Professional at all.

As Ryan mentioned, the Flex framework is HUGE, and only getting bigger. A smarter compiler isn’t the issue when it comes to Flex’s size. It’s that so much dependancy exists across it’s classes. If you try to pull out any kind of binding logic, your going to pull in the resource manager – which in turns pulls in….

One thing that I think will dissuade Flash Professional users away from Flash Catalyst is the Flex Framework, which some AS3 developers find too heavy.

And the “missing” things you mentioned like inverse kinematics, and the motion editor aren’t at all on the roadmap for Flash Catalyst.

I think instead what you’re going to see is a MUCH improved workflow between the two tools so you can actually switch between them during the design process. That’s our plan for the long term.

=Ryan
ryan@adobe.com

As a side note, even Adobes own marketing material on their Labs Flash Catalyst site says “…Flash Catalyst can output a finished Flash SWF or AIR application that’s ready to publish on the web.”

@Alan – regarding file size, I really think that is becoming less of an issue, and going forward, 200k is nothing unless you’re doing flash ad banners where you have a size restriction. However, it is definitely within Adobe’s capabilities to publish more streamlined SWFs when excess framework code isn’t required. It just takes a smarter compiler.

Regarding Flash Catalyst becoming a bust due to auto-generated code. Its a real risk.. probably even more important that Adobe makes FC more than just a UX/skinning tool.

FC and FlashIDE target much different markets. FC is not meant for general web content, it is for the developement of RIAs. It attempts to solve the Flex skinning and CSS hell that exists now. I only agree that FC will cut in on Flash for RIA work, but that is all. All content that FC does and will manipulate will use Flex. A ‘hello world’ app in Flex ( I think ) is around 200k+. A robust Flash site can be done in much less than that.

FC really can’t do any of what Flash does, and vice-versa. The ‘animations’ that FC does are really just Flex’s transitioning states – nothing like the bitmap/vector manipulation of a timeline tween. When ‘animating’ in FC the user is affecting components, which Flash certainly cannot do.

I have the opinion that FC will be somewhat of a bust. FC is just a ‘Dreamwaver’ for Flex. I hope the auto generated code is going to be tolerable.

Flash Catalyst is actually built on top of Eclipse. It was mentioned at MAX. Adobe has done a great job of building a very non-Eclipse looking tool. Eclipse will also be the platform for the next generation Coldfusion IDE as well. Adobe is definitely embracing Eclipse in a big way.

As for killing off a cash cow.. Flash is part of every suite. I don’t have any numbers to back it, but willing to bet a large percentage of owners aren’t buying just Flash but instead getting it part of a suite. As for the workflow between Flash and Flex –> its not all that great. Its good and it works, but lacking. FXG in Flash CS5, who knows. Might happen, might not. I don’t see why they would invest the resources to add it. FXG is a graphics exchange markup language and very few people (I’m one of them) actually design in Flash but instead pull assets from other tools like Illustrator or Photoshop. And anyone who really wants to target Flex will most likely jump to Flash Catalyst and skip Flash all together.

As for Flash Catalyst is in a “different market”. I think FC can bring a lot to the table. Even in the preview release from MAX, you can do a large majority of what Flash IDE can do. And I would have to imagine that Adobe will be adding more to make Flash Catalyst a more robust UX tool. With a little work, it could replace 99% of what current Flashers use it for and based on the work I did for few years for marketing group in Vegas, it would work.

Ultimately, I think the question of Flash Catalyst and its future comes down to how Adobe sells FC. If its included with Flex Builder only, then maybe it won’t ever be an issue. However, if its part of the Creative Suite, or priced very reasonable, then I believe that even if Adobe doesn’t obsolete Flash IDE with Flash Catalyst, the users eventually will.

.. Just my opinion though and anything can happen between now and the Flash Catalyst 1.0 release.

First of all – “FC is built on Eclipse” – it’s not. I have the preview copy of Catalyst on my machine and if this thing is built on Eclipse, they’ve done a solid job of hiding it. There’s not a single bit of the UI that has anything to do with Eclipse and I don’t think the Eclipse license would allow something like that. It reads and writes the Flex Builder project files, but that’s about all it has to do with Flex.

Second – why would Adobe kill a cash cow? Flash makes Adobe much more money than Flex does. Flash CS4 now reads the metadata in Actionscript classes and so it’s already possible to work fairly efficient with Flash and Flex. Flash CS5 will get full FXG support that will enable a even better workflow.

Third – Catalyst is for a different market. Flash is and will always be an animation tool. It can deliver all the things the Flash Player can, but it’s – as you say – not very suited for coding. The editor truly sucks. Catalyst on the other hand is for the UX designers that want to make prototypes of their applications. It will never become an animation tool, but will be a serious RAD tool for designers working with programmers.

Sorry. I don’t agree here

J